"God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, 'Oh Lord Thou knowest.' Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints." - A.W. Tozer
As many of you know Berny and I have been having a rich discussion
regarding the doctrine of total depravity. I encourage you to go through it (if you are not of the faint of heart). I just finished posting my most recent reply to the tough points that he raises. But I do want to say that some things are more important than this discussion.
I know it's a statement that can be left unsaid, but some of my students recently reminded me that these discussions sometimes leave people feeling dry and empty. Sometimes they leave people feeling more confused. The truth of the matter is that God does not want us to be in a state of desperation and anxiety because we don't know the answer to everything. I think A.W. Tozer says it best in the quote above.
Some things are more important and that is developing a rich relationship with God now. We should be immersed in the height, width, depth, and length of His love. How awesome is He! How awesome is His Word!
I don't want anyone to stumble because of our liberty. If you decide to continue with our discussion please feel free. We will probably keep commenting on the same blog. But otherwise, let's edify one another in other ways.
The church may be discussing the same issue until our Lord and Savior returns. As Berny once said "What I especially love is the fellowship we can share while not all thinking the exact same things about certain issues. We will worship in heaven together, and we must not lose sight of that."
Does that mean that there is no answer to this issue? Of course not. It is possible that it is impossible for us to yet understand it. It is possible that one or both of us is wrong. It is also possible that both sides are right. Like the doctrine of the Trinity.
You can argue from Scripture that Jesus is very separate from the
Father (My Father is greater than I - John 14:28). You can also argue that Jesus and the Father are the same (I and My Father are One - John 10:30) Is Jesus making such a blatant contradiction? Doesn't the gospel writer realize that this sounds like a contradiction? It's not a contradiction. Both points are 100% true. It's not a balance. It's not a compromise. It's not a 50-50. It's part of the Trinity. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are different persons and the same God who is one Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Some things we cannot understand yet, but can be logically accepted.
Is this the case in this debate? Maybe. But some things are more important.
As many of you know Berny and I have been having a rich discussion
regarding the doctrine of total depravity. I encourage you to go through it (if you are not of the faint of heart). I just finished posting my most recent reply to the tough points that he raises. But I do want to say that some things are more important than this discussion.
I know it's a statement that can be left unsaid, but some of my students recently reminded me that these discussions sometimes leave people feeling dry and empty. Sometimes they leave people feeling more confused. The truth of the matter is that God does not want us to be in a state of desperation and anxiety because we don't know the answer to everything. I think A.W. Tozer says it best in the quote above.
Some things are more important and that is developing a rich relationship with God now. We should be immersed in the height, width, depth, and length of His love. How awesome is He! How awesome is His Word!
I don't want anyone to stumble because of our liberty. If you decide to continue with our discussion please feel free. We will probably keep commenting on the same blog. But otherwise, let's edify one another in other ways.
The church may be discussing the same issue until our Lord and Savior returns. As Berny once said "What I especially love is the fellowship we can share while not all thinking the exact same things about certain issues. We will worship in heaven together, and we must not lose sight of that."
Does that mean that there is no answer to this issue? Of course not. It is possible that it is impossible for us to yet understand it. It is possible that one or both of us is wrong. It is also possible that both sides are right. Like the doctrine of the Trinity.
You can argue from Scripture that Jesus is very separate from the
Father (My Father is greater than I - John 14:28). You can also argue that Jesus and the Father are the same (I and My Father are One - John 10:30) Is Jesus making such a blatant contradiction? Doesn't the gospel writer realize that this sounds like a contradiction? It's not a contradiction. Both points are 100% true. It's not a balance. It's not a compromise. It's not a 50-50. It's part of the Trinity. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are different persons and the same God who is one Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Some things we cannot understand yet, but can be logically accepted.
Is this the case in this debate? Maybe. But some things are more important.
7 comments:
I know that I just began to read into your discussion, and by no means do I intend to dig into it yet.. :o)
I have a question, though. Berny, what about Tozer's quote do you disagree with? I do not think that Tozer meant for us to raise our hands up and give up without trying to understand God. On the contrary, from what I have read of Tozer, he is very much FOR people searching hard after Christ so that "what you believe in your heart would make sense in your heart". It seems to me that this particular quote refers to the moments that we encounter the very Mystery of God and we cannot comprehend logically the essence of the Lord.
The Mystery of God should not lead us towards giving up our intellect or towards a spiritual laziness. I believe that this is a huge problem the Church suffers today. Many come across the immensity of God and give up with mere blind faith.
The Lord came to make the blind man see, but I know that my salvation will not be determined by my understanding of issues such as that of depravity and the problem of evil. My salvation will be determined by my relationship with a Living God, Who will complete the work He has begun in me.
The very fact that you were at one point an Arminian, and now you are able to appreciate the Gospel as a Calvinist, proves Tozer's view. At the end of the day it is our relationship with the Lord and the fruit that comes forth from it that will determine what the Lord will hold against us. I believe that the only way a person can come to know Christ is if He reveals Himself to him/her. The Lord is judging the hearts of those that follow Him and not how much doctrine we know.
With this I am NOT saying that these questions are not important and that they do not matter. I believe that the answer, or the search of the answer to these questions is the very thing that will enable us to live a fruitful life in Christ with an appropriate view of God. Yet, if I die tonight without a clear understanding of these views, I am convinced tht the Lord will not hold me responsible for it. He will judge the way I have lived my life and my relationship with Him, but I truly doubt He will hold me responsible for not understanding what I think He meant to be a Mystery.
Berny, I am sorry that I have taken so long to respond to your response. I truly appreciate your comment about me being a great communicator; may the Glory fall on Christ who is the Word that abides in me! Only in Him does any of this make sense! :o)
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I believe that now we do stand on the same page, or at least close to it. I completely agree with what you said: "So maybe it's not that I disagree with Tozer as much as I disagree with those who would rather close their eyes and take a nap when they could be exploring the doctrinal terrain that God has given us." I feel that the Church today has done exactly this and then they have had the audacity to defend their viewpoint on doctrine without having touched a single book.
Now, you mentioned that you do not believe that the Lord is going to hold us responsible of possessing the knowledge of these doctrines in the salvific sense (which I agree); yet you believe that we will be held responsible in some degree to the knowledge we do have of these doctrines. I guess in this I disagree a bit.
I am convinced that these doctrines are essential because they clarify and put into perspective the RIGHT view of God. It is evident that if our understanding of WHO God is, is somehow marred by our own presuppositions, our whole lifestyle will reflect that. If this is the case, I can see how what you believe is true. The Bible does say that our every action will be judged on THAT day. If this is what you mean by God holding us responsible, then I agree. But, if what you mean is that God will hold against us the lack of knowledge that only He can reveal then I must disagree.
I believe that the Bible is very clear when it states that the teachers are to be held to a higher standard of judgement. This being for the fact that God has entrusted this knowledge upon them so that there would be some type of action: spread the Word. Since the Bible makes it a point to mention this, I believe that implicitly it states that those to whom God does not reveal these Truths will, in turn, be held responsible only for what they DO know and the actions that follow that knowledge.
Again, with this I am not minimizing the responsibility we have as Christians to know God. He even makes it a command when He says "Seek first the Kingdom of God..". We ought to seek hard after Him. When Christ says this, He does not say it so that He can then judge us, but more because He understands that He is ALL we need. If we seek Him everything falls into place. We are to be made complete in Him, and this only comes from our knowledge of Him. That is why Paul in Colossians prays that the people would come to the full knowledge of God; only then are we made whole.
Thanks for engaging with me in this matter! You and your wife are truly a blessing to my life and to Freddy's life. Have a blessed day Berny!!
Love in Christ,
Nana
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